OXFORD, Mich. – At the trial of the Oxford High School shooter’s mother, a school counselor took the stand Monday and shared more details about a meeting involving the parents and the shooter on the day of the massacre.
School counselor Shawn Hopkins, who is currently on leave through the end of the school year, was called to the stand Monday, Jan. 29 to testify at the trial of Jennifer Crumbley, the mother of the school shooter. Both the shooter’s mother and father are accused of failing to take steps to prevent the Nov. 30, 2021, mass shooting, and are charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter each.
In the more than two years since the shooter murdered four students and injured seven other people, prosecutors have shared much of their catalogue of evidence in their cases against the shooter and his parents. Part of that evidence included information about a meeting called by a high school counselor on the morning of the shooting because he was concerned about the shooter and his wellbeing.
Some details about that meeting, which was attended by both of the shooter’s parents, had already been made to the public. However, Hopkins’ testimony on Monday offered some new insight on what exactly happened that morning.
Here’s what we know about the meeting, as of Monday.
New details: Before the meeting
Hopkins, a former youth pastor, said a teacher asked him to touch base with the Oxford shooter on Sept. 8, 2021. The shooter had reportedly written an alarming autobiography poem in which the shooter said “he feels terrible and that his family is a mistake,” a teacher had said.
Hopkins said he’d try to catch up with the shooter later in the day, but ended up having a conversation with the teacher about what happened, instead.
On Nov. 10, 2021, a different teacher emailed Hopkins that the shooter was “having a rough time right now” and “might need to speak” with the counselor. Hopkins wasn’t able to catch up with the shooter that day due to meetings, but chatted with him the next morning, the counselor testified.
Hopkins said he told the shooter on the morning of Nov. 11, 2021, that he was around if the shooter needed someone to talk to.
The counselor’s next interaction with the shooter occurred on Nov. 29, 2021, the day before the shooting. Another email was forwarded to Hopkins in which a teacher said she found the shooter searching bullets on his phone at the end of class, and was concerned that his work has been seemingly violent.
Hopkins attended a meeting held by the then-restorative practices coordinator, who called the shooter down. Hopkins previously testified that the shooter appeared calm and compliant during that meeting, and seemed to agree that the behavior was inappropriate for school.
The meeting lasted fewer than 10 minutes, and a voicemail about it was left for the mother.
Day of the shooting
At 8:05 a.m. on Nov. 30, 2021, Hopkins received another email about the shooter. A teacher said the shooter was watching videos on his phone involving someone “gunning down people.” Hopkins said he made the decision to call the shooter down to his office after seeing the email around 8:30 a.m.
A bit later, the then-dean of students showed Hopkins a photo of the shooter’s math assignment, which was covered in violent drawings and concerning phrases. Hopkins walked into the shooter’s class, took the assignment with the drawings -- which had been altered by the shooter at that point -- and brought the shooter to his office.
The counselor sat down with the shooter and asked him about the assignment. The shooter initially said the drawings were related to a video game, and that he liked drawing for video games.
Hopkins said he began to ask more pointed questions to get beyond the “video game” idea, and that’s when the shooter’s demeanor shifted and he became sad. The shooter told Hopkins that his friend moved, his family dog had recently passed, as well as his grandparent, that he was struggling with COVID and attending school during the pandemic, and that he had argued with his parents about grades the night before.
After this discussion, Hopkins said he decided to call Jennifer Crumbley to come to the school right away. The counselor said he was concerned the shooter was displaying “suicidal ideation,” and that he should seek help immediately.
Both Jennifer and James Crumbley, the father, appeared at the school for the meeting at 10:40 a.m. that day. The shooter had been in the counselor’s office for about an hour or more at that point.
The then-dean of students, who is in charge of discipline, was also present for the meeting.
Hopkins said the father and the shooter sat in the chairs directly in front of his desk, and Jennifer Crumbley sat in a chair a bit further way. When asked if the parents approached or greeted their son, Hopkins said “not to my memory.” The counselor also identified the mother as appearing “distant” in demeanor.
The counselor testified that he shared with the parents all of the information about the shooter that he’d received in emails over the last few days. The parents also confirmed that they’d received the voicemail from the day before, and that guns were their hobby, and that they’d been to the shooting range over the weekend.
When the counselor went over all of the things that the shooter said had been bothering him, Hopkins said, “It did not feel as though it was new information to the parents.”
Hopkins said he did not explicitly ask the parents to remove the shooter from school -- however, he testified that he asked the parents to get the shooter therapeutic help that day, if possible. Jennifer Crumbley “made it clear” that they wouldn’t be able to take the shooter for help that day, Hopkins said.
Hopkins told the court that he was caught off guard and confused, and wasn’t expecting this type of response from the parents given the details they’d been provided -- and the fact that they both arrived for the meeting, though only one of them was required to.
The counselor then asked if the parents could take the shooter for help within the next 48 hours, and said he would follow up with them. If the shooting hadn’t happened, Hopkins said he planned to follow up with the shooter the next morning, and call Child Protective Services if nothing had changed.
Because the parents weren’t taking the student home that morning, the counselor expressed concern about the shooter being alone, since he was believed to be potentially suicidal. The shooter requested to remain in class, and the parents were on board with him staying in class, so the shooter was allowed to return to his normal schedule.
The meeting with the parents ended “fairly abruptly,” Hopkins said. Jennifer Crumbley reportedly asked, ”Are we done?” to which Hopkins said he responded, “I guess so.”
Hopkins testified that the parents didn’t hug their son or say anything to him. The shooter gathered his belongings, and was given a pass by Hopkins, who told the shooter that he “cared about him.”
Prosecutor: Why did you say that?
Hopkins: Because I do; I did. It was an hour and a half with a student who was sad. We were talking about future plans.
The meeting with the parents was no longer than 15 minutes, Hopkins said. The shooter was excused, and went on to carry out the mass shooting shortly after.
Counselor’s limited scope
When the prosecution re-directed Hopkins following the defense’s cross examination, Assistant Prosecutor Marc Keast hoped to make his points clear to the jury. While Hopkins did decide to allow the shooter to resume his class schedule the day of the shooting after the meeting, the prosecution implied that decision made sense given the knowledge the counselor had.
Keast executed the following line of questioning in hopes of showing that if the parents had shared more information with the counselor during that morning meeting, the outcome might have been different.
Keast: On Nov. 30[, 2021] when you met with Jennifer Crumbley, did she tell you that on March 9[, 2021] that her son had texted her he was seeing demons and bowls flying off the shelf?
Hopkins: I did not.
Keast: Did Jennifer Crumbley tell you that on March 17[, 2021] her son had also texted her he was hallucinating?
Hopkins: No.
Keast: Did Jennifer Crumbley tell you that her son texted her on March 20, 2021, that he was hallucinating?
Hopkins: No.
Keast: Did Jennifer Crumbley tell you that in April of 2021 she had told a friend of hers that she thought [the shooter] was depressed?
Hopkins: No.
Keast: Did Jennifer Crumbley tell you that she had referred to her son as weird?
Hopkins: No.
Keast: Did Jennifer Crumbley tell you that she had never once set an appointment with any mental health professional?
Hopkins: No.
Keast: Did Jennifer Crumbley ever tell you that his only hobby was involving firearms?
Hopkins: No.
Keast: Did Jennifer Crumbley ever tell you that she posted on Instagram as early as June of 2021 that he had obtained his own handgun?
Hopkins: No.
Keast: Did Jennifer Crumbley ever tell you that the day before the shooting, at 3 o’clock in the morning, she herself was researching clinical depression options?
Hopkins: No.
Keast: Did Jennifer Crumbley tell you that she and her husband gave her son a Sig Sauer 9mm handgun just four days before the shooting?
Hopkins: No.
Keast: Did Jennifer Crumbley ever tell you that on Nov. 30, 2021, it wasn’t the first time he asked for help?
Hopkins: No.
Keast: Did Jennifer Crumbley ever tell you that the day before [the shooting] after the voicemail was left for her from Pam Fine, she texted her son and said ‘LOL you have to learn not to get caught?’
Hopkins: No.
Keast: Did Jennifer Crumbley ever tell you that James Crumbley worked for DoorDash and had no obligation to not take their son home?
Hopkins: No.
Keast: Did Jennifer Crumbley tell you that on Nov. 30[, 2021[, she was permitted to leave work when she needed for family issues?
Hopkins: No.
Keast: Did Jennifer Crumbley tell you that on Nov. 30[, 2021] the meeting she allegedly had in the afternoon, she was not required to attend?
Hopkins: No.
Keast: Did Jennifer Crumbley tell you, ever, that their son was struggling throughout the year 2021?
Hopkins: She confirmed it, based on what he had said in regards to COVID and virtual school.
Keast: But they never went through these details?
Hopkins: Not these details, no.
Keast: It took you all of about 20 minutes to decide to request Jennifer Crumbley to come into the school immediately, that’s what you testified to?
Hopkins: Yes.
Keast: Is that the total picture that you wish you had?
Hopkins: No.
Keast: Would you have liked to have as much information as you possibly could?
Hopkins: Absolutely.
Keast: Was their son still in the room, in your office, when [Jennifer Crumbley] said she couldn’t take him home?
Hopkins: Yes.
Keast: Nothing further.
---> Live updates: Day 3 of trial for mother of Oxford High School shooter (Jan. 29)