OXFORD, Mich. – It’s time to seat a jury ahead of the trial for James Crumbley, the father of the Oxford High School shooter.
Jury selection is began Tuesday, March 5, 2024, and will continue into Wednesday.
Here are some key details about the case:
- James Crumbley is represented by defense attorney Mariell Lehman. Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald and assistant Oakland County Prosecutor Marc Keast lead the prosecution. Judge Cheryl A. Matthews presides over the case.
- Crumbley is charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter -- one for each of the students who were killed by his son during the Nov. 30, 2021, shooting at Oxford High School: 14-year-old Hana St. Juliana, 16-year-old Tate Myre, 17-year-old Madisyn Baldwin, and 17-year-old Justin Shilling.
- His wife was found guilty of all four counts on Feb. 6, 2024, after a nine-day trial that included seven days of witness testimony and two days of jury deliberation.
- The shooter was sentenced in December to life in prison without the chance of parole.
Crumbley’s trial is set to begin almost exactly one month after his wife was found guilty.
His defense team filed a motion to have the trial moved out of Oakland County, claiming the coverage of his wife’s case would make it impossible to seat an impartial jury.
But Judge Cheryl Matthews denied the motion, instead granting the defense with extra peremptory challenges for jury selection. That means Crumbley’s attorneys can dismiss more jurors without specifying a reason.
Here are the full updates from Day 1 of jury selection:
Proceedings end for the day
- 4:38 p.m. Tuesday
Matthews told the jurors they were being sent home for the day.
They were told to be back at the courthouse at 9 a.m. Wednesday.
Juror excused
- 4:38 p.m. Tuesday
The juror who said he wasn’t sure if he would be a good juror after seeing video of the shooting was excused.
McDonald vs. Lehman
- 4:37 p.m. Tuesday
McDonald clarified that James Crumbley isn’t charged with being a bad parent, but with failing to provide ordinary care. She said that failure led to a result that was foreseeable. Lehman objected.
Volunteer EMS
- 4:37 p.m. Tuesday
One juror said he doesn’t know how he’ll feel when he sees the shooting. He’s a volunteer EMS and doesn’t know if he’ll be a good juror.
Lehman’s argument
- 4:36 p.m. Tuesday
Lehman is setting up an argument that James Crumbley is an imperfect parent, but that he’s not responsible for the shooting.
McDonald’s interjection
- 4:34 p.m. Tuesday
McDonald said James Crumbley was at the school the morning of the shooting and played a role in the murders, which drew gasps from some of the potential jurors.
Matthews jumped in to say Lehman meant that jurors need to be able to judge James Crumbley separately from what happened inside the school.
Back-and-forth between prosecutor, defense attorney
- 4:29 p.m. Tuesday
Lehman told jurors that they are going to see and hear emotional evidence from inside Oxford High School. She said James Crumbley’s son shot those people, not James Crumbley.
McDonald interjected that James Crumbley was at the meeting where he was presented with his son’s worksheet, which contained disturbing drawings.
Judge Matthews jumped in during the back-and-forth.
Judge McDonald jumps in - the jurors are taken aback
Teenager communication with parents
- 4:23 p.m. Tuesday
Lehman asked the jurors if, as a teenager, they told their parents everything. Most said no.
She asked how any of them kept things from their parents or lied. Most raised their hands.
Teenagers and affection
- 4:21 p.m. Tuesday
Lehman asked the jurors with teenagers to raise their hands if those teens love affection in public.
Two potential jurors raised their hands.
Lehman asked if parents should force affection on teenagers who don’t want it.
‘Perfect parent’
- 4:19 p.m. Tuesday
Lehman asked jurors to raise their hand if they think they’re perfect parents.
She asked if any of them have made mistakes or wrong decisions. She then asked them to raise a hand if they think they do their best. Most agreed they do the best they can.
Confusion about ‘access’ questioning
- 4:06 p.m. Tuesday
Lehman asked a line of questions about access to certain things inside a house. There was some confusion for both the judge and the jury.
That sparked a long back-and-forth about access.
One juror told Lehman that she was being confusing.
Lehman is trying to explain that access to things inside a home is different for children of different ages, but the jurors appear to be lost, according to Shawn.
Former juror
- 4 p.m. Tuesday
One potential juror said he served on a jury that found a person charged with homicide had acted in self-defense.
He said guns aren’t for him, but he doesn’t have anything against them.
Shooting range question
- 3:59 p.m. Tuesday
A potential juror was asked if children 12 and older should be trained if they know there are guns in their home. Lehman said in order to ride a snowmobile, someone has to be trained and licensed.
The juror said she has no problem with parents taking their teenagers to a shooting range.
Photographer
- 3:55 p.m. Tuesday
A photographer said she owns a Ruger at home and keeps it locked in a safe.
She said if people like guns for hobbies or to protect themselves, they should be allowed to own a gun.
“Most of our kids aren’t trained at a range,” she said. “It’s a shame.”
Potential juror on guns, mental health
- 3:53 p.m. Tuesday
Another potential juror said he had guns pulled on him when he was a child, but he uses a gun to protect his household. He said he goes to the shooting range.
“I did not like it when I shot it, really,” he said.
The man said his cousin was suffering from mental illness when he shot and killed his mother.
Lehman asked if there are times when someone can be having a mental health crisis and you don’t know about it. He said it depends.
The man said listening to his cousin gave him the clues he needed to try to provide help.
‘It’s tragic’
- 3:48 p.m. Tuesday
One woman told Lehman she’s heard a lot about the case from talk at her work. When asked about her opinion on the case, the woman said, “It’s tragic.”
Potential juror’s questioning
- 3:46 p.m. Tuesday
A father with two children, ages 12 and 9, has two guns that he keeps locked up. He said he doesn’t have strong opinions about gun ownership, but people should be responsible.
Lehman asked if the only way to responsibly secure a gun is with a safe, and he said no. He agreed that trigger locks would be another way.
Lehman’s questioning
- 3:40 p.m. Tuesday
Lehman’s questioning of the potential jurors so far focuses primarily on guns and mental health.
Teacher
- 3:31 p.m. Tuesday
Lehman asked the high school teacher if he knows how to spot mental illness or moody teenagers. He said he can spot moody teenagers.
Court about to resume
- 3:23 p.m. Tuesday
The sides are returning to the courtroom, and Lehman will get a chance to question jurors next.
Juror movement
- 3:08 p.m. Tuesday
The judge moved the previous 15 jurors into the next room during the break.
Lehman hasn’t had a chance to ask any questions yet.
200 jurors sent home
- 3:03 p.m. Tuesday
Matthews sent 200 potential jurors home for the day, telling them to come back in the morning.
Court takes break
- 2:54 p.m. Tuesday
The court is taking a short break.
During the break, this group of jurors is being moved next door.
McDonald ends questioning
- 2:53 p.m. Tuesday
McDonald ended her questioning of the 15 potential jurors in the box.
All 15 said they can be fair in the case and make determinations based only on the evidence that’s presented.
Engineer
- 2:51 p.m. Tuesday
An engineer with General Motors said he doesn’t watch the news and he doesn’t go on social media. He said he hears what his wife tells him, but otherwise, he “lives under a rock.”
He’s the third potential juror without social media.
Next juror
- 2:43 p.m. Tuesday
The next juror doesn’t own any guns but said they are legal and as long as they are stored safely, they have no problem with guns.
Teacher
- 2:41 p.m. Tuesday
A high school teacher said he has an elementary school son who sometimes deals with students who might be dealing with mental health issues.
He doesn’t own guns, but he grew up around them.
Mental health question
- 2:34 p.m. Tuesday
McDonald asked the jury members if they have experience with mental health issues.
One man said his cousin was shot and killed by her son, who was suffering from a mental health crisis.
Watching news on TV
- 2:31 p.m. Tuesday
Of the 15 potential jurors in the jury box, 12 of them said they watch television on the news.
Grocery store worker
- 2:30 p.m. Tuesday
A man in his mid-20s is a grocery store worker and a writer. He doesn’t have any children or strong opinions about guns.
He said he would never own a gun, but he’s indifferent about them.
He said he has heard a little bit about the case, but he’s not on social media.
IT support worker
- 2:28 p.m. Tuesday
The man who works in IT support is in his late 20s. He said he once served on a murder case in Detroit.
He grew up in Livonia but knows about this case from “just a few headlines.”
He said he doesn’t have social media and is skeptical of what he sees on the news. He said he can make up his own mind.
Karen McDonald questions jurors
- 2:23 p.m. Tuesday
Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald began to question the first group of potential jurors. There are currently 15 people in the jury box.
Since the first three or four were excused, the same group has been together in the box.
One woman said she immigrated to the United States in the 1990s. She said she can understand everything that’s being said. She said she lives in Oakland County but has never heard about this case.
Many of the potential jurors have children, including teenagers, toddlers, and young adults in their 20s.
One man said he doesn’t have a television, but he gets his news online. His children go to private school.
Jennifer Crumbley trial coverage
- 2:16 p.m. Tuesday
Matthews asked if anyone has watched news reports about Jennifer Crumbley, and about six jurors raised their hands.
Matthews said this is a very different case, and all of those jurors assured her that they can be fair to James Crumbley.
‘Deeply sad’ details of shooting
- 2:14 p.m. Tuesday
Matthews told jurors that they’re going to hear about a shooting that killed four children at a school, and that the shooting was carried out by James Crumbley’s son.
She said everything in the case is “deeply sad,” but emphasized that jurors need to be able to set aside their sympathy and judge the case based on evidence and facts.
‘Oxford Strong’
- 2:13 p.m. Tuesday
Matthews asked if any of the jurors have “Oxford Strong” signs in their yards. She also asked if anyone has donated to causes or victims linked to the shooting.
The high school teacher said they own “Oxford Strong” T-shirts.
Gun ownership
- 2:10 p.m. Tuesday
Matthews asked if anyone is a gun owner.
Multiple potential jurors said yes. Matthews clarified that someone who has a gun at home should still be able to be fair, and the jurors agreed.
Some jurors have multiple guns. Some have them for hunting.
One woman spoke up and said she has two pistols. She said she would not have a problem with someone owning a gun.
No crime victims in first group
- 2:04 p.m. Tuesday
Matthews asked if anyone has been a victim of a crime, and none of the jurors spoke up.
One juror said her father is in prison, but that won’t impact her as a juror.
Another juror’s daughter was struck by a drunk driver two years ago, but she is OK.
Family in law enforcement
- 2:02 p.m. Tuesday
Some potential jurors have said they have family members in law enforcement, but that will not stop them from being fair during the trial.
Logistics of bringing in jurors
- 2:01 p.m. Tuesday
Potential jurors are brought into the courtroom in groups of about 50 or 60, and more are pulled in from the next room, as needed.
Details about first group of jurors
- 1:59 p.m. Tuesday
The first group of jurors includes people who work in IT, at a grocery store, as a writer, and a photographer. There’s a dental worker, a high school teacher, a supervisor at an electrical company, a restaurant owner, and an engineer.
One juror has three grown children. Another is a foster care parent.
2 more jurors excused
- 1:49 p.m. Tuesday
A woman who might have a trial conflict was excused. A man who has a treatment scheduled for Wednesday was excused.
First juror excused
- 1:47 p.m. Tuesday
Matthews warned jurors that they have to face a real hardship, like an already scheduled surgery, to be excused.
One juror said if he misses medical school clinical days, he has to do the entire year over. He was excused.
2-week trial?
- 1:40 p.m. Tuesday
“You think the trial will take two weeks?” Matthews asked.
Keast said yes.
This lines up with the rough timeline of Jennifer Crumbley’s trial, which included two days of jury selection, seven days of witness testimony, and two days of deliberation.
Judge reads through possible witnesses
- 1:38 p.m. Tuesday
Matthews read through a list of possible witnesses to make sure the potential jurors didn’t know any of them.
First group sworn in
- 1:36 p.m. Tuesday
The first group of potential jurors has been sworn in.
No sequestering at hotel
- 1:34 p.m. Tuesday
Matthews told the potential jurors that she has the ability to sequester the jury at a hotel during the trial, but she does not plan to do so.
She asked them to trust the court, saying, “We need your help.”
No social media
- 1:31 p.m. Tuesday
Judge Matthews told potential jurors they should stay off of social media or there will be serious consequences.
First group of jurors called in
- 1:27 p.m. Tuesday
The case vs. James Crumbley has been called, and the first group of potential jurors are now seated in the jury box.
Key elements of prosecution’s case
- 1:24 p.m. Tuesday
Shawn said these are some of the key elements in the prosecution’s case against James Crumbley:
- He bought the gun. He signed for the gun. He’s on video buying the gun. He is supposed to secure the gun.
- At the meeting at Oxford High School that took place 90 minutes before the shooting, he did not tell school officials about the gun. But when he learned there was a shooter, he did not rush to school, instead going home to look for the gun (which wasn’t there).
Both sides look ready to begin
- 1:21 p.m. Tuesday
The prosecution and defense, including assistant Oakland County Prosecutor Marc Keast and defense attorney Mariell Lehman, are at their tables and appear ready to begin.
Lehman is speaking to James Crumbley.
They’re waiting for Judge Matthews to arrive.
Lt. Tim Willis with prosecutors
- 1:18 p.m. Tuesday
Oakland County Lt. Tim Willis is seated at the prosecutor’s table, which was also the case throughout the trial for Jennifer Crumbley.
Willis was the Oakland County Sheriff’s Office lieutenant in charge of the investigation into the Oxford High School shooting.
He also testified against Jennifer Crumbley.
Prosecutors, James Crumbley arrive
- 1:07 p.m. Tuesday
Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald and her team entered the courtroom just after 1 p.m.
Lehman was already in the courtroom.
Both sides were called back for a quick meeting. James Crumbley, his hands cuffed in front of him, was escorted back into the courtroom.
Jury questioning expected to begin soon
- 12:56 p.m. Tuesday
Lunch is expected to end by 1 p.m., and jury questioning is scheduled to officially begin.
Jury questionnaire
- 12:46 p.m. Tuesday
A request for a copy of the jury questionnaire was denied for this trial, but it’s likely that these potential jurors are being asked about their knowledge of the Jennifer Crumbley case, their views on gun, their views on parental involvement in terms of school safety, and mental health.
Why this jury selection is very different
- 12:34 p.m. Tuesday
While there are many similarities between the Jennifer Crumbley and James Crumbley trials, this jury selection process is very, very different than the first.
“We have a different situation when selecting a jury,” Shawn said. “Finding a jury of people here in Oakland County who may not have heard much about the Oxford school shooting or didn’t dig much into the Jennifer Crumbley trial, that’s going to be more difficult than selecting a jury for the Jennifer Crumbley trial.”
Shawn Ley update
- 12:23 p.m. Tuesday
Shawn Ley joined Jason Colthorp on Local 4 News at Noon to give one last update before juror questioning is expected to begin in the courtroom.
🎥 You can watch his full update below.
Jury questioning expected after lunch
- 12:14 p.m. Tuesday
Jurors have not yet been called into the jury box for questioning, but that is expected to begin sometime soon after lunch.
James Crumbley seen in courtroom twice
- 12:01 p.m. Tuesday
James Crumbley was only seen in the courtroom twice before noon Tuesday.
He was there alongside his defense attorney.
More on court’s slow start
- 11:49 a.m. Tuesday
The parties have not been in the courtroom for the bulk of the morning, and that’s why the proceedings got off to such a slow start.
Although James Crumbley was brought in and addressed by the judge more than an hour ago, the first group of jurors still has not been called into courtroom 2C.
Involuntary manslaughter elements
- 11:39 a.m. Tuesday
To prove James Crumbley’s guilt on manslaughter charges, the prosecution has to prove that he was either grossly negligent or failed to perform a legal duty.
For a juror to find James Crumbley guilty, they must determine that prosecutors proved at least one of these two elements beyond a reasonable doubt.
It doesn’t matter which of the two elements are proven, and all 12 jurors don’t have to agree on which element. They all need to feel like at least one of the elements was proven, and then they can reach a guilty verdict.
Update from courthouse
- 11:25 a.m. Tuesday
Shawn Ley joined Christy McDonanld on Local 4+ before 11 a.m. Tuesday to provide an update on what’s going on at the courthouse.
🎥 You can watch that full video below.
James Crumbley’s defense attorney
- 11:11 a.m. Tuesday
James Crumbley is represented by defense attorney Mariell Lehman, of the Lehman Law Firm in Shelby Township.
Lehman began representing James Crumbley, specifically, when the two parents requested separate trials. Shannon Smith represented Jennifer Crumbley.
Evidence admitted
- 11 a.m. Tuesday
Some of the evidence that was disputed by the defense was the shooter’s journal and text messages he exchanged with a friend. In both pieces of evidence, the shooter expressed that he was asking his father for help, but didn’t receive it.
Judge Matthews admitted both the journal and the text messages for James Crumbley’s trial.
Dismissing jurors
- 10:46 a.m. Tuesday
Both side know most potential jurors are likely going to have at least some knowledge about the school shooting and the Crumbley parents’ cases.
They just want to make sure that jurors can be fair in their determination.
During Jennifer Crumbley’s jury selection, most people admitted they are aware of the case and said they are news consumers. But the majority said they could be fair as a juror.
Some people did say before the Jennifer Crumbley trial that they had already made up their minds, or they expressed anti-police sentiments. Those jurors would be dismissed.
Explanation of extra challenges
- 10:46 a.m. Tuesday
This jury pool will include even more people with knowledge about this case than the jury selection for Jennifer Crumbley, because of the coverage of that first trial.
That’s at least partially why Judge Matthews felt it was appropriate to give the defense more peremptory challenges.
“Finding people who just completely know nothing about (this case) -- that’s just not going to happen,” Shawn said.
No questionnaire
- 10:37 a.m. Tuesday
Local 4 requested a copy of the jury questionnaire, which was provided during the Jennifer Crumbley trial. That request was denied this time.
Why James Crumbley wears headset
- 10:26 a.m. Tuesday
James Crumbley wears a headset in court because he needs help hearing in court.
He told the judge that the headset helps him “a great deal” to hear what’s going on.
This has been the case throughout the court process, even when the Crumbley parents were planning to be tried together.
‘Very slow start’
- 10:12 a.m. Tuesday
Shawn said proceedings were supposed to begin around 8:30 a.m. Tuesday, but court got off to a “very slow start.”
Deputies didn’t bring in James Crumbley until 9:30 a.m.
Juror details
- 9:59 a.m. Tuesday
Potential jurors are currently in another area of the courthouse, filling out a questionnaire.
They will be called into the room 100 at a time.
On Tuesday, 308 people have been called for jury selection.
Jury selection proceedings
- 9:50 a.m. Tuesday
Jury selection proceedings began at 9:50 a.m. Tuesday.
James Crumbley entered the courtroom in a gray suit and a headset, which is to aid his hearing.
Matthews asked Crumbley a number of questions about moving forward with Lehman as his attorney.
Some movement in courtroom
- 9:41 a.m. Tuesday
Proceedings still haven’t begun, but there is some movement in the courtroom, and it appears the start of jury selection could be soon.
Until now, the courtroom has been “very quiet,” according to Shawn Ley.
Last time we saw James Crumbley in court
- 9:33 a.m. Tuesday
The last time we saw James Crumbley in a courtroom was a Feb. 22 hearing, when Judge Matthews heard arguments on several motions.
She agreed to let the previous gun owner testify during that hearing and said she needed more time on the other matters. She would later rule that one injured student could testify, and the trial would not be moved.
Jury selection process
- 9:19 a.m. Tuesday
Potential jurors who are called, questioned, and prove they are willing and able to be fair and impartial during the trial will be included on the jury, unless they are excused due to a peremptory challenge.
Not all potential jurors who are summoned for this trial will be questioned.
The questioning of potential jurors will continue until 12 jurors and additional alternate jurors are selected for the final jury.
The jury will be seated, or complete, once all jurors have been selected and no additional challenges are made.
More information about peremptory challenges
- 9:04 a.m. Tuesday
During voir dire, attorneys can use peremptory challenges to dismiss a juror without needing a reason. Peremptory challenges differ from “for cause” challenges, which means the attorney has a specific reason for believing a juror would not be impartial.
There is no limit on the number of for cause challenges that attorneys can make. Still, attorneys will need a good reason to excuse a potential juror using a for cause challenge, and will have to make it clear to the judge.
The defense and prosecution are both allowed five peremptory challenges under Michigan law. But judges can give either or both sides more challenges, if that’s deemed necessary.
More challenges for defense
- 8:50 a.m. Tuesday
James Crumbley’s defense team was given more peremptory challenges to dismiss jurors without a specific reason.
Typically, the defense and the prosecution each get five such challenges, in addition to “for cause challenges.” But when Judge Matthews denied the request to move the trial out of Oakland County, she compromised by giving the defense more peremptory challenges.
The exact number of extra challenges was not disclosed.
No action yet in courtroom
- 8:41 a.m. Tuesday
So far, there has not been any activity in the courtroom. Shawn arrived around 8:15 a.m.
Showing emotion
- 8:27 a.m. Tuesday
Prosecutors often pointed to Jennifer Crumbley’s demeanor in surveillance footage following the school shooting. They tried to depict her as someone who wasn’t showing the appropriate reaction to her son killing four other students.
But that might not be a relevant piece of the James Crumbley trial, as some pieces of the prosecution’s evidence showed him being much more openly emotional.
Gun storage
- 8:12 a.m. Tuesday
One of the issues in question during the James Crumbley trial will be the storage of the SIG Sauer handgun at his house.
While she was on the stand, Jennifer Crumbley testified that her husband was the one in charge of handling the guns at their home. She said the gun was locked in a case and kept separately from the key, which was hidden inside a beer stein in the kitchen.
Prosecutors are likely to highlight the shooter’s access to the weapon and pin it on James Crumbley.
Shawn Ley in courtroom
- 7:59 a.m. Tuesday
Local 4′s Shawn Ley is in the courtroom for jury selection, so he will provide updates here on what’s going on. Cameras are not allowed during jury selection, and we cannot show jurors during the trial, either.
More than 12 jury members
- 7:44 a.m. Tuesday
Throughout the proceedings at Jennifer Crumbley’s trial, there were 17 jury members in the courtroom, five of whom would eventually become alternates.
Nobody knows which jurors will become alternates until they’re randomly drawn by the judge before deliberation. Only 12 jurors will actually take part in deliberations.
Jury selection logistics
- 7:34 a.m. Tuesday
James Crumbley’s jury selection is completely separate from his wife’s, but if you’re wondering what to expect, here’s an idea of what that process looked like.
Jennifer Crumbley arrived in the courtroom for the first day of jury selection at 9:14 a.m. Jan. 23, 2024. Proceedings lasted until about 4:45 p.m. and picked back up the following day.
Court went back into session at 9:34 a.m. Jan. 24, and a jury was seated by 2:38 p.m.
After the jurors were officially selected, opening statements began the following morning in court.
1 Oxford student might testify
- 7:21 a.m. Tuesday
Another pre-trial debate centered on the prosecution’s request to call two Oxford High School students to the stand. Both were injured in the Nov. 30, 2021, shooting.
Keast said the students can provide unique perspective about what happened when the shooter first emerged from the school bathroom, but the Lehman said this is just another attempt to enflame the emotions of the jury and prejudice them against James Crumbley.
In the end, Matthews decided to allow the prosecution to call one of the students to testify. She said they can choose which student to call.
Both students have turned 18 since the shooting, Keast said.
Click here to read more about this topic.
Previous gun owner allowed on witness list
- 7:12 a.m. Tuesday
The previous owner of the SIG Sauer 9 mm handgun used in the shooting is allowed to testify in James Crumbley’s case. Matthews allowed the prosecution to add him to their list during a Feb. 22 hearing.
“He bought the eventual murder weapon in May (2021),” Keast said. “He used it three times. He was provided with a cable lock. He never used the cable lock. He identified that as the same cable lock sold back to the firearm store, which in turn will be identified by those witnesses as the same cable lock sold to Mr. Crumbley.”
Matthews decided that the previous gun owner’s testimony could be relevant, so the prosecution is allowed to call him as a witness.
Click here to read much more about that ruling.
More on motion to move trial
- 6:58 a.m. Tuesday
Matthews officially denied the request to move the trial on Feb. 22, but this wasn’t the first time she’s made this ruling.
Before the Crumbley parents decided to have separate trials, they asked for their joint case to be moved out of Oakland County for many of the same reasons cited by the defense in this latest motion.
They claimed the public reaction to the shooting wouldn’t allow them to have a fair trial, but Matthews said in 2022 that, “The level of pretrial publicity, and the number of prospective jurors that might have been directly affected by the Oxford shooting alone, is not enough to warrant a change of venue.”
Defense attorney Mariell Lehman argued last month that the publicity surrounding Jennifer Crumbley’s trial had changed the landscape enough to warrant a move. But again, Matthews did not agree.
